Western Courier

What was the control group for the identical twins study? Does the study not confirm that homosexuality is at least partially dependent on genes?

As for natural selection weeding out a gay gene by now, aren't there gay animals? Did they choose to be gay?

You also refer to "homosexuals who don't want to be gay," but the major reason why any homosexual person would not want to be gay in the first place is because of the hatred and bigotry that is spewed at them. Why should they change whether it's partially a choice or not? Why shouldn't they be able to choose who they want to be with? Who are we as a society to treat them this way for not good reason?

The whole 'homosexuality: nature vs nurture' thing seems like a false start to me. For both sides of the debate.

English is not genetic, but try as you might, you will never be able to unlearn it. And sociopathy *can* be genetic, but it's not a free ticket to go around harming others.

And lets not forget that many scientists consider homosexuality to be a congenital behavior based upon the hormone levels of the mother's womb... just to throw further complexity into the debate.

Just because a behavior is learned doesn't mean it can ever really be unlearned. Read up on 'wild children' and all the behaviors they could never unlearn. But someone has no obligation to unlearn a behavior, if the behavior is ethically acceptable.

And on the flip side... Whether a behavior is genetic or not has nothing to do with whether it's acceptable or not. If I'm genetically predisposed to rape, I still must control my urges. We live in a society, so lets take this debate to where it belongs, the realm of sociology and ethics.

For me, behavior must be judged by whether it harms other people, which homosexuality does not. Others will pick and choose parts of the Bible and build their morality from, often to come out against homosexuality... sometimes not.

So be it. Lets have the morality debate on that level, and leave the genetics to the geneticists.

That is the most factually inaccurate account that I have read in ages. My personal favorite is the bit about college girls "changing" their sexuality. College "experimentation" by girls is hardly about sexuality, and much more about gaining attention from boys, who they see as being facinated by some girl-on-girl action.

And your bit about identical twins? If it's environmental rather than genetic... aren't identical twins typically raised in, you guessed it, identical environments?

As a student at WIU, I hardly would guess that you're a world-class geneticist, so leave the genetic speculation to the experts, and get back to reading your bible, attending anti-gay/abortion/women's rights/evolution rallies, or whatever it is I imagine you probably do.

Patrick,

Perhaps people will respect the views of Christians when a) they stop expecting everyone to live according to their values(which they somehow equate to being our country's values, even though we supposedly have a seperation of church and state)

and
b) when so-called Christians stop being so hypocritical in their observations of others.

As for your views on evolution not being scientifically viable, I'm hoping that your MA/MSc and PhD aren't in a science-related field, or we're all doomed...

You are certainly implying that HOMOSEXUALITY is a FLAW. Or do you misunderstand what you just wrote? You say that Homosexuality is not of nature. Are you ignorant of (or just ignoring) the fact that many animals exhibit homosexual behaviors, sometimes transatory, sometimes long-term.
Also, by your own admition in the article, a man (a journalist) who behaves heterosexuality, could come to feel homosexual. This transatory quality shown that anyone could become more or less gay or straight. What your thesis shows, is that many (perhaps MOST) people, are in fact BISEXUAL. You yourself have a 40-80% chance of being some form of bisexual. That is a natural occurance, and a natural state for a person to be in. The tendancies that develop, or even CHANGE (as you discussed) are what make our preferences. We are fluid, because 40-80% of us are BISEXUAL. And that's not because of gay parenting or any other environmental factors. That is what humans are. Genetically, and to varying degrees, fluidly BISEXUAL. No matter what values or beliefs the family holds.

Mr. Padgett relies on statistics from a study by Bailey to support his argument that homosexuality is not genetic. I assume Mr. Padgett doesn't know that J. Michael Bailey was charged with research misconduct at Nortwestern University and as a result was forced to resign his position as Psychology Department Chair. "Research misconduct" ... let that sink in.

Mr. Padgett also cites Robert Spitzer. Spitzer was quoted by New York Times, stating that despite the findings of his own study, the number of homosexuals who could successfully become heterosexual was likely to be "pretty low." He also conceded that participants in his study were "unusually religious."

"Homosexuality serves no evolutionary or reproductive purpose," says Padgett.

Neither do sterile heterosexual men and women. So what?

Can someone help me become gay? If I were gay I'd get tons of action. Perhaps Jeffrey Padgett knows where I can start the process?

Technically, being lesbian or gay is a preference. Simply because a lesbian obviously prefers women over men and a gay man prefers men over women. I'm not going to rule out being gay is genetic, but I'm not going to rule out the possibility that it is a preference either.

Note that I did not use 'choice'. You can't choose to be a lesbian, gay, bi, or trans. Did any of you choose to be straight? What someone loves, whether it be color, food, people, is not a choice.

Telling someone that they 'choose' to be gay is like telling a little child that they don't like carrots because they 'choose' not to like them.

People are gay simply because they just are. Not by choice, not by genetics. We just are.

If we simply are who we are then what causes us to be that way? Chance?

I did not choose to be straight because it is how we are created to be. Being gay or lesbian means to make a choice that is against how God created us to be.

I think that hormones have A LOT to do with it.. has anyone studied the bloodwork of a gay vs a non gay of the same family (twin study).. etc. I was growing up str8 and never had any intention of "becoming" a lesbian.. after the birth of my child I did not have my period for almost 6 months (and had to take progesteron/hormons) to have a period at all. I also developed a bit of hair on my face shortly after that and my voice became lower. About a year after all of that I did start to have feeling for the same sex (female).. and I did have an afair with a woman for about 5 years.. and haven't been with a man since the birth of my child (18 yrs ago). I really have always wondered what happened to my hormones after the birth of my child. I really think there is something to hormonal changes and homosexuality.. I'm not making this stuff up..that's really the way it happened. At the time I didn't question it because it happened over time but looking back I realize that the actual change really did happen rather quickly in me

Who's to say gay people are born that way or not born that way? If anything, both probably apply. We hear of many gay men saying that they felt they were different from a very early age and felt an attraction to other males. Entirely possible, isnt' it? Who would know better than the gay individual him/herself? 2 women who are divorced and fed up with men embrace one another for support, and want to marry and raise a family. 2 different cases, but both quite possible. Why should we look at this issue from only one perspective?

So, in the course of procreation, if I am gay, on whom am I dependent? Egg/sperm banks? How would this be genetic? Face it, society needs breeders. Another question: what are the divorce statistics amongst gay marriages, since those records probably now exist?

Simply food for thought...

No one knows what it is like to be homosexual unless you have walked in one's shoes. Let me tell you and whoever else who is reading this, I have lived a Christian life all of my life, I was raised in a Christian home with Christian believes, with Christian relatives, but still yet I have struggled being attracted to the same gender more than the opposite gender. NO, NO, NO, NO, and etc this is coming from someone who struggles the homosexual lifestyle day by day, homosexual behavior is not certainly a choice, and I dare you people who has never walked in our shoes to tell us that it is a choice. I know what you straight people and you Christians believe, all you want to do is judge, and not really consider the ones who are like me. I can see how Christian people would think that it is a choice, but they only base their facts on just the Christian beliefs. Out of my whole life of 38 years, I have sat back and watched, learned, and focused on Christians and their ways and actions towards the homosexuals. The Christians, only focuses on the Christian believes, but they never focus or considers on the homosexuals who struggles day by day with this lifestyle. Even though I have went to church and was raised in a Christian home all of my life, it just out rages me how you straight and Christian people are. Until you understand what we homosexuals, and what we go through with the struggles of this way, don't anyone criticize or tell us it is a choice, because it absolutely is not. Even though I don't live a homosexual lifestyle with someone with the same gender as I am, these feelings are there and real, these attractions for the same gender are there, has been all of my life. and it kills me every day, it eats me alive to have these feelings, and not really understand them. I have never experienced love before until this one day when I met this person of the same gender. I never asked to be this way, never wanted it, but it is within me, and that is why I consider myself as a homosexual, and I have been with the same gender before a few times in my past, and it really feels good. I have dated and been with I know 13 of the opposite gender, in my life time, and I am sure there are more, and you would think that out of all of those, I would find love, and would find the attraction to be more with the opposite gender than with the same, but no. I have to wake up every morning in fear that even though I need love desperately in my life I will never find it with the opposite gender, due to these feelings that I have for the same gender. Nobody knows what it is like to be this way, it just hurts so bad to wake up every morning to have these feelings for this person and not to be able to show or share the feelings with that person. When you see these homosexuals (gay and lesbians), who is out there that is open, who seems like it is okay, to live that way for example, Ellen DeGeneres they have lived with those feelings all of their life, and when a person who is straight or not, in whatever situation they are in, they get to a point to where they cannot stand it any more, and they feel like the only way to cope with how they really are they come out and they just want to be happy. I do have a child physically from the opposite gender, all together I was with that person for 10 years. Yes, I do care and love that person, but I don't love that person like two people in a relationship loves each other, or like a married couple should love their spouse, but actually the marriage wasn't for me, was not real, and true, because of still having these feelings that I have towards this person of the same gender and being attracted more to the same gender than the opposite. I do know for a fact from experience homosexual lifestyle is not a choice, and even though I am who I am, I don't believe in same sex marriage, but I do believe in love with whomever it is, and I know what it feels like to be wanted and loved from the same gender. My advice to the straight, to the Christians and whoever else, I know that I am going to give this advice to my child, and I really hope my child doesn't turn out to be like me, but the advice is no matter how someone is living their life, whether they are living it right or if they are living it wrong, we should never, ever judge, criticize, or hate them, we need to love them. That also applies or goes for family members who struggles with their loved one who is homosexual or a alcoholic, or a drug addict and etc. I don't know if what I have said has helped anyone, but before anyone says that a homosexual lifestyle is a choice, how about putting your lifestyle to the side and research, and try to understand our way of lifestyle, before any decisions are made.

Riddle me this; if a set of identical twins should have the exact same...everything, including sexual orientation; why don't twins have identical finger prints?

This is a terrible article, not because of the writer's opinion (though I do disagree), but because of it is poorly researched and written.

"Most scientists and psychiatrists agree that saying homosexuality is caused by genetics is like saying that a tall person is going to be a basketball player." Source?

"In the same way, some men are more feminine and some women more masculine, but that does not cause them to become homosexual. There is a correlation, but not a cause - this is what the media often misreports."
Feminimity and masculinity, like gender, are determined by society, not biology, and therefore would not affect a person's biological makeup. Yes, some men, gay or straight, are more feminine than others, but to argue that homosexuality is a choice because of this is ridiculous.

"In a recent Australian study of more than 14,000 identical twins by Bailey, Martin and the University of Queensland, it was found that 38 percent of identical male twins were gay and 30 percent of identical female twins lesbian. Identical twins means identical genes - if homosexuality truly is genetically caused, then the number of identical twins that are both homosexual should be at 100 percent. "
One of two things happened here, either the writer did not understand what the results of that study actualy mean, or he failed to accurately report the findings in this article. If 38% of identical male twins are gay, what percent of identical male twins are straight? I know what you're trying to get at, but what you should have reported was the percent of identical twins with different sexual orientations. However, since the author once again failed to mention his source, it's impossible to know exactly what study he used.

"This proves there is no "gay gene," but that there are environmental factors involved. " While it does prove that there environmental factors, it does not disprove biological causes.

"College girls change more often than any other group, switching between straight, gay and bisexual attractions."
It's called experimentation. A straight person can act gay, and a gay person can act straight, but that is not the same as actually changing sexual orientation.

"It doesn't make sense for it to be genetic because natural selection would have eliminated the mutation by now."
Many homosexual men and women still have children of their own, especially if social norms forced them to pretend to be and act straight.

"There is not a single study that can prove there is a gay gene or set of genes that determines a person's orientation. "
I beg to differ. While we still have much to learn about the human body and genetic makeup, the study below proves that, at least in some creatures, biology does affect sexual orientation and behavior.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/03/science/03cell.html?ex=1275451200&en=ab3fa239e94d393c&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Picture the person you are most attracted to. What about them attracts you? Their eyes, their body, their brains. Why do these things attract you? Why do I find Johnny Depp extremely attractive, but am so turned off by someone who looks like Jabba the Hutt?

Because that's what I'm attracted to. No explination needed, right?

Alot of anti-gay people admit that they can't control what about a person they are attracted to. But apparently gay people have a choice in what they are attracted to. I don't think it works that way.

Let's think about this logically. Homosexuality is estimated to exist in 5-10 percent of humans on either a primary or secondary (i.e. bi) level. This study shows a 30-40 percent rate. That is 3 to 8 times higher than would be expected of a random sample! IT is not near 100 percent either. Well, it probably means this: people may have a weak, middling, or strong genetic INCLINATION towards homosexual tendencies, but based on their environs, individual interactions, and various other small "chaos-theory" level influences, may end up homosexual or not.

I don't subscribe to tabla rosa nor do I think we are stamped developmentally from birth. Rather, I simply think that we are a bumpy,half-written-on tabla that influences us without simply pointing us in one direction or another. Moreover, there is much research showing that hormone imbalances in the womb have a great deal to do with homosexuality and transsexuality, and that would not be a genetic change (as the chromosomes and genes are already there after conception) but rather a physical, developmental change that is not genetic.

Also, J. Michael Bailey is quite the scourge of the earth - not because he is anti-gay and anti-trans, but because he is a gross distorter of truth.

Thanks

K. White - former Courier columnist

hmm, stumbled upon this on google. Lets set all social boundaries aside for a minute. How many of you have fantasized about homosexual experiences? Probably all of you including the author. What if it was considered perfectly natural to have these feelings? The reality is we are all looking for acceptance, safety, and what we call love. Does it matter if someone finds love with the same or opposite sex? Does it matter if it's genetic or environmental? NO!

This sounds like a great program and a great way to improve education in our schools!